Friday, December 23, 2005

Thoughts for Discussion

This is something I've been thinking about recently.

Who did Christ died for?

All the sins of all men.

All the sins of some men, or

Some of the sins of all men.

Another question:

Did Christ die for the sin of unbelief?

I could write out a detailed thesis here of what I believe on this subject. But I won't for two reasons one I don't have the time at the moment, and two and I would like that to be worked out in the form of comments and discussion relating to this. So let me know what you think and we'll see if this sparks any interesting discussion.


At 12/23/2005 1:17 PM, Blogger Daniel Mann said...

Christ died for God. Making satisfaction for the (elect). Christ Jesus died for all sin of the (Elect). Christ Jesus only died for the sin of unbelief of the (elect).

At 12/23/2005 1:21 PM, Blogger Daniel Mann said...

I might add Christ Jesus died for all sin of the (elect) ONLY. And only for the elect.

At 12/23/2005 5:56 PM, Blogger Jason said...

Yes, by saying that Christ died for all the sins of all men, that means He was unsuccessful for not all are saved. It seems to cheapen the significance of the cross.

"If Christ on His cross intended to save every man, then He intended to save those who were lost before He died. If the doctrine be true, that He died for all men, then He died for some who were in hell before He came into this world, for doubtless there were even then myriads there who had been cast away because of their sins." C. H. Spurgeon

At 12/23/2005 6:48 PM, Blogger Julianne said...

Another option is that Christ died for some of the sins of some people. This, however, is totally inconsistent with Scripture.

I find it interesting that when someone rejects Calvinism, it is usually hinged upon the point of Limited Atonement. They, however, are all linked with a common thread, or thought.

If Jesus died for all men, than logically, no one needs to go to hell because their sin was already atoned for. The beauty of Particular Atonement (that Jesus died for a certain people whom the Father chose before time based upon His holy counsel) is that Jesus is a conquerer. He is powerful and all-accomplishing. This is just another beautiful doctrine which reveals to us the magnificant love of God. Of course, you know that already.

These thoughts are worth thinking! Thanks, Jason!

At 12/23/2005 7:16 PM, Blogger Jason said...

Why is a God who is in control of everything such a hard thing for some to come to terms with? I think that largely that's what all the different arguments boil down to, is the Sovereignty of God. Is God really God, or is man trying to claim some control for himself.

It's all about HIM

At 12/23/2005 8:06 PM, Blogger Julianne said...

And the problem is us. We're humans, we want control in our lives. We can't give up on the idea that God is God and we are not.

At 12/23/2005 8:57 PM, Blogger Jason said...

It all comes back to selfishness, I want, I need. What was Christians biggest battle in Pilgrims Progress?
We must die to self and live for CHRIST.

At 12/25/2005 11:19 PM, Blogger Daniel Mann said...

Julianne: I would say the problem people have when they reject calvinism is actualy with point 1-radical corruption, than it continues on and crescendo until it reaches the climax of point 3 limited/particular/or my favorite definite atonement. A false understanding of point 1, only leads to a false understanding of all the points. There was a time when people called themselves "four point Calvinists", but most today reject all the points knowing that they are all linked together.

Jason: you quoted from C.H. Spurgeon who is perhaps my favorite all time preacher, I try to read his sermons daily,(not trying to boast) I am always so amazed how much he cherished this doctrine, he seemed to weave it into just about every sermon.

Jason you said.."Why is a God who is in control of everything such a hard thing for some to come to terms with?" It is because by nature man is at enmity with God and Hates God. There is no neutrality with natural man. It is not as if they don't know; "by their unrighteousness they suppress the truth. For what can be know about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them."Romans 1:18b-19.

" For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened." Romans1:21

Julianne you said "And the problem is us. We're humans, we want control in our lives. We can't give up on the idea that God is God and we are not."

I am a bit consern (not to pick on you Julianne) that we Christian speak as if we are no different than the unbeliever, but this neutralistic thinking will erase the Christian distinctiveness and blur the antithesis between worldly and believing mind-sets, and ignore the gulf between the "old man" and the "new man". Paul teaches that the Christian receives the things of the Spirit(1 Cor. 2:16) As Christians we heard Christ's word, which is able to to turn us from darkness to light (Acts 26:18) Christ has given us a spirit of wisdom and enlightens our eyes, so that we might both know Him in salvation and have knowledge about His truth.
If Christ died for our sanctification and not our justification only, than will He not call us out from the world and cause us not think as an unbeliever? Thus making His death efficacious in our sanctification.
Giving us even more to boast about in Christ Jesus.

At 12/26/2005 10:36 AM, Blogger Jason said...

Daniel, In saying "Why is a God who is in control of everything such a hard thing for (some) to come to terms with?" By some I was refering to those who consider themselves christians. Those who have no problem giving God credit for good things ie. Gods Grace in sending Jesus to suffer and die as a propitiation for our sins. But when it comes to bad things ie. natural disasters, huricains, tsunamis, earthquakes. They are not willing to give God the credit or glory.

And I think Julianne was saying the same thing. Refering to those who are christians but still struggle with giveing every thing over to God. (Not to put words in your mouth Juli. Is that kinda what you meant?)

I'm not one of those super christians yet that has it all figured out.
I still try and selfishly take control or credit away from God, from time to time.

Can or should one who is sanctified struggle with this?

I'm not consciously trying to take control of my life (for I have given it all over to Him) but when I take my eyes off of Him it feels like I'm doing things all by my self.

Hmm just thinking out loud (or i guess as I type:)

At 1/18/2006 9:21 PM, Blogger Julianne said...

Yes, Jason, that is what I was saing. That even we as regenerated beings still have pride and want to govern ourselves. We want to think that "we made a decision for Christ" or that we have "free will."


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